From @mmasnick: https://www.techdirt.com/2024/09/05/second-circuit-says-libraries-disincentivize-authors-to-write-books-by-lending-them-for-free/
"Even though this outcome was always a strong possibility, the final ruling is just incredibly damaging, especially in that it suggests that all libraries are bad for authors and cause them to no longer want to write. I only wish I were joking. Towards the end of the ruling (as we’ll get to below) it says that while having freely lent out books may help the public in the “short-term” the “long-term” consequences would be that “there would be little motivation to produce new works.”"
"there would be little motivation to produce new works" without profit motive?
the ENTIRE FANWORK INTERNET WOULD DISAGREE, which is probably, by quantity, a sizeable if not majority of fiction writing in the past 2 decades, it contains some of humanity's longest works!
it's the opposite if anything! how many people got into reading and writing BECAUSE of libraries? I know I did! I started writing because I was always holed up in the library reading fiction and it inspired me. If libraries didn't exist, I wouldn't have had so much access to books. I didn't have money to buy books, I didn't have bookstores near me. Without libraries, your incentive to write if you ONLY care about paying audiences and profit, would also only be narrowly targeted at people who bought books, and not the general audiences available to you through libraries.
also libraries allow you to try out tons of books, i can't imagine without libraries how people would even decide what to purchase, simply going in blind based on reviews like movies except way more expensive and with a much larger time commitment which means people would be even more selective
but then publishers don't actually care about that, they want to turn digital books into a streaming model, where all works are just "content", a featureless sludge to be pumped into the machine to drive subscriptions :\
the other thing is libraries are one of the few remaining public spaces that people can go to that serve people and not profit or landowners. the reason I read so much as a kid? I hid in libraries to escape bullying. Sure, there's some bookstores that allow people to sit & read, but they're still private stores, and they'll kick you out if they think you're "loitering" or the wrong kind of person. and they're not a place unattended children can just go into & stay.
Libraries provide access to information and access to the wider digital & analog world for so many people, but also, they're run for a completely different purpose than almost any other kind of "public" space left. The death of libraries would hurt more than even the lack of ability of people to read free books. :\
"Tragically, the Court then undermines the important ruling in the Betamax/VCR case that found “time shifting” (recording stuff off your TV) to be fair use, even as it absolutely was repackaging the same content for the same purpose. The Court says that doesn’t matter because it “predated our use of the word ‘transformative’ as a term of art.” But that doesn’t wipe out the case as a binding precedent, even though the Court here acts as though it does."
It's also really bad and is going to hurt a lot of other things about digital preservation and being able to copy/backup/record stuff if the courts now start to decide that recording TV never should have counted as fair use :\
also, libraries aren't a charity, they're a public service
the anti-IA people say the IA allows anybody to borrow while "real" libraries exist for the poor but that's not the purpose of a library & RL libraries don't just exist as charity for the poor
we as a society have lost the concept of what a public service is, we only see things in terms of profit and charity
public libraries exist b/c our societies decided that access to culture, to information, to knowledge, and to a public space that preserves those things is a public good, it's something everybody should have
public libraries are not and should not be a charity that we only minimally fund b/c some people are too poor to partake in capitalism and therefore need a little handout so they can get smarter to partake in capitalism
i don't think people realize just how important libraries of all sorts are to "book culture", i think they're so normalized in our lives we just take it for granted that some kids grow up with a love of reading and become readers and book lovers and writers... if libraries die off or are killed off enough that they're a shell of themselves, the book industry is not gonna be swimming in cash like they think, in a generation or two, they'll find that the culture of book reading will have massively died, people will still read but they won't have this "love of books", they'll be like "I can get free fic on AO3, why do i care to buy an expensive book from an author i don't know?"
@ami_angelwings
Archives are for preservation.
Libraries are for lending.
@PJ_Evans @ami_angelwings and what about libraries that hold archives of city newspapers that offer other archives to the public as a part of their lending service?
@kc @PJ_Evans @ami_angelwings What about the term “lending library?” Such a term would be redundant if PJ was correct. And I hope PJ doesn’t think he can go to the Library of Congress and borrow whatever he sees.
@PJ_Evans This really isn’t the gotcha moment you think it is.
@yordansic@mastodon.online
You're the one who thinks that.
@ami_angelwings way way way too many people seem to be unable to view anything except through the lens of turning a profit, whether it's a library or the postal service or a community swimming pool.
Capitalism as a concept has really eroded public goods as a concept.
@ami_angelwings this was really well said, btw. bookmarked for later.
@darkuncle @ami_angelwings True, in general it seems any public service is devalued in capitalist society... Like people aren't even proud of those services.
@cicadagen @ami_angelwings or that people are embarrassed to use something they didn't "earn”
(I have thoughts on this related to the scam that is "unlimited PTO”)
@darkuncle @ami_angelwings either monetary profit or public image profit which is what a lot of charities seem to be set up for.
@darkuncle @ami_angelwings Fully agree. A question for those who don’t like non-profit things: roughly how much profit do they think the military makes?
@whybird @darkuncle @ami_angelwings
How much does the military make? Lets leave that question to General Smedley D. Butler
https://www.heritage-history.com/site/hclass/secret_societies/ebooks/pdf/butler_racket.pdf
@msftcangoblowme @darkuncle @ami_angelwings Oh, yes *war* is very, very often for profit, but in business terms, the military themselves are a *cost center*.
@whybird @darkuncle @ami_angelwings
The military as a cost center.
But the math
Approx half (i don't know the exact percentage) of the US budget does to the MIC.
The politicians all agree on being war hawks, shilling for the MIC, and foreign proxy war adventurism
Corps absolutely drool for war. Their dreams are dominated by the prospect of being a military contractor during war time.
So their must be more to the story than simplifying it down to `cost center`.
US gov't == MIC adventerism
@msftcangoblowme @darkuncle @ami_angelwings I’m just replying to a thread about libraries…
@ami_angelwings Authors get a cut from books taken out from libraries (because ebooks are only good for a certain number of checkouts and then the library has to renew). Authors do not get a cut from IA. Ebook piracy is hurting book sales and even leading to book cancellations. (Google “Raven Cycle ebook piracy” for more info.)
@rednikki @ami_angelwings they said that about music sales, too. Remember when Napster was going to destroy the entire music industry? Then Apple came along and solved the problems Napster was solving (outrageous CD prices, buying a CD with 2 or 3 good songs and 10 garbage tracks, not being able to preview before you buy) and suddenly digital releases are the next big thing. Then streaming was going to kill music…
Every entrenched business puts out propaganda about technology killing the industry any time anything threatens their ability to effortlessly make money. Don’t believe it.
@mathaetaes @rednikki @ami_angelwings The CD thing, for example, is simply not accurate. If I sell 10 CDs I make $100 (ignoring for a moment it costs money to make CDs). But if I get streamed 10,000 times I make exactly $0. For someone who has millions of streams, yes, you can make some money, but even then your actual income comes from touring (and maybe some from merch).
Even if you’re a relatively well known author you still might need to have a day job. There’s only a few Scalzis out there, but there’s thousands of Dan Morens who could really use the sales you’re saying don’t mean anything.
@selgart @mathaetaes @ami_angelwings Thank you. That is exactly it.
@mathaetaes @ami_angelwings Dude, I’m friends with musicians. Their livelihoods are in fact being stolen by streaming. My friend got a million streams of his music and made $10. He’s now a social media manager.
@ami_angelwings
Ugh, I was just talking yesterday with a friend about public services and that they're their own thing separate from charities. So annoying.
@ami_angelwings I like that you bring up public services. I think that it calls back to the ultimately moral underpinnings of American copyright law (with Thomas Jefferson of all people lmao), and how it ought to be strongly tempered because of the importance of the individual’s access to ideas.
@ami_angelwings I'm pretty surprised that the publishing industry hasn't turned on public libraries earlier, tbh. Agree with everything you said, and libraries are amazing for homeless crowd to have a safe place, even though it's not quite meeting all their needs. I love libraries and public services, and always get weirded out with "public transport isn't turning profit this year" like why should it
@ami_angelwings can you plase not call the Internet Archive "IA", for reasons? Thank you.
@ami_angelwings thank you!! I'm learning in the last year that I really was deluded into thinking charities and non-profits were two of few options, public services is lighting up in my mind more now!
I'm so sad it had to be off the backs of such an anti-democratic decision, though...
@ami_angelwings I really cannot agree with you more. And to add to your arguments, I believe that the court system should really try to stay away from practicing economics - especially if they cannot do it in a disciplined manner. That brief argument, "True, libraries and consumers may reap some short-term benefits from access to free digital books, but what are the long-term consequences? If authors and creators knew that their original works could be copied and disseminated for free, there would be little motivation to produce new works. And a dearth of creative activity would undoubtedly negatively impact the public" - ignores the concept of the addressable market space. It assumes that library users, or some percentage thereof, are would be customers bypassing the market place and I'm just not sure that's the case.
It's certainly not in my life. I read books from the library that I have no intention of buying because they're not books I want to own. I recently checked out a book on baking bread. Had that option not been available to me, I would not have gone down to the bookstore and bought the book. I would have just ignored it altogether.
That being said, I really think the conversation about potential customers and all that is unbecoming of the court system. They cannot do a good job here and shouldn't try to do a good job here. Libraries are a civic question not an economic one. No one is going to attack the Library of Congress from claiming two copies of every published book. Why are we attacking libraries elsewhere?
@ami_angelwings Might help people understand that in Germany, when you publish a physical book (TL;DR), you're obliged to send two copies to the German Library.
There are a number of reasons for this, but one of them is archival.
As a society, we decided that no matter what comes, if someone deems it important enough to be put into print, it's important enough to be preserved.
IA, of course, does much the same for the digital sphere.
@ami_angelwings Libraries are literally (pun intended) preserving our culture.
It should precisely be conservative people that want this to continue, given that conservation/preservation is the shared goal.
If they don't, they're not conservative, but something else. Regressive, perhaps, or control seeking. And liars, obviously.
@ami_angelwings I’ve never heard an author disparage a library. They are usually a library’s fiercest champions.
@ami_angelwings it's often overlooked how *stingy* some rich people are, and how *petty* too. If libraries were only for poor people significant amounts of rich people would consider *books* to be only for poor people, and refuse to spend money on them. This would be a vast cultural sickness that we're only narrowly avoiding these days anyway. Libraries are more necessary than ever.
@ami_angelwings when rich people *do* recognize the benefit they get from something (rare, but still often enough) they also tend to fund and champion that thing themselves, way beyond the monetary value they received.
@ami_angelwings means testing directly foments class warfare. Means testing turns things from "this is what we value as a society and want to ensure access to" into "this is what we tax the rich for at no benefit to them". The former is the only socialist ideology that works in the US long term.
The truth is the rich like overpaying for convenience, to the point you can fund that convenience for *everyone* at a price the rich find reasonable, especially if you hype up how generous they are
@ami_angelwings@urusai.social wait,,, are people seriously saying that? wtf
@darkphoenix yeah it was a big talking point from the anti-IA authors when the whole row started in 2020
@ami_angelwings@urusai.social so are they saying people above a certain income should be banned from libraries? Or that there should be some sort of shame in having a library card in that case?
@darkphoenix I don't think they think very much about the logistics at all, I think most of them haven't been to a library since they were a kid and still think of libraries as dark inaccessible places that only nerds and poor students go to, and they think libraries should only exist in poor neighborhoods and schools and shouldn't stock stuff like DVDs, video games, or manga, and some would probably income test libraries if they could
@ami_angelwings
There used to be a time, when the Robber barons of the Gilded Age built public libraries, rather than trying to tear them down.
Though that was likely largely for PR reasons. And because some of those actually made it big from humble beginnings, rather than starting with rich parents like the current crop.
Also, their idea of Christianity was vastly different to the one prevelent in the US nowadays.
@ami_angelwings There are modern day libraries, which are places to gain wisdom, that are called an "Athenium" and that literally translates to "Temple of Athena."
@ami_angelwings I mean libraries have been around at least for 3000 years or so, so if they'd hinder book business, they would've already destroyed the economy by now...
@ami_angelwings Libraries are one of the wonderful institutions that help so much in any town.
@ami_angelwings Over here, a lot of public/local libraries also serve as community archives. We're talking:
* letters and diaries from local people, some of whom are really not all that famous outside of the area, or who specifically left their archives to the library
* newsletters, posters, etc. from local clubs, charities and social groups
* amateur recordings of bands from local pubs and live music venues (sometimes also flyers, ticket stubs, etc from these events, without which there would be literally no record that they ever happened)
* archives from local photographers and photography enthusiasts, which provide a more detailed record of what the area looked like over time
* archives of school yearbooks, newsletters, etc - often kept for far longer than enrollment records as well
* in some rare cases, archives from local building projects, which can include things like concept sketches and blueprints
It's not just that it would cost money for a lot of this stuff to be archived digitally - it *wouldn't be*. Those local groups often don't have the space to archive this material, if they even think of it. Those individuals doing photography or local writing might have kept their own copies of their work, but then you're relying on them being open to sharing it, having the space for it, and ofc having someone know what it is and archive it appropriately when they pass on. And in many cases, people just don't know where else to send that kind of stuff for preservation.
And a lot of it might sound like it's not that important - but it can end up being important to so many people for all kinds of research projects, big and small.
@ami_angelwings A great thread on libraries which are an undeniable treasure.
Are people actually saying that? Because that's an utterly bizarre point of view.
George Monbiot, I think it was, very usefully defined a public lending library as a "public luxury", in contrast to "private luxuries".
The point of having public libraries is that you, by yourself, cannot reasonably afford to have, or find space in your home for, a million books, but your town can. Even if you personally could, not everybody in town can, and books are so vital to the development of the human intellect and spirit, and the continuity of culture, that we want everyone to have as wide access as possible to them.
It's much the same logic for having public swimming pools. Even if you can afford a pool, and have space for one at your house, the public one will be able to offer a lot more facilities, because everybody has clubbed together.
@tsukkitsune @ami_angelwings Keep in mind that this legal fight is happening in the US, where decades ago most of the public swimming pools were removed because so many people would rather not have them than have Black people swim in them. >_> And where public drinking fountains are increasingly rare, and decorative fountains are often poisoned specifically so homeless people can't drink from them.
The idea of "public good" has been ground down since before I was born.
@ami_angelwings
I was kind of shocked to consider that some people think like that, but it explains so much. Ironic that we went from "public libraries are necessary for the emancipation of man" (hyperbolic, but allow me the indulgence) to "whatever we need libraries for" in under 200 years.
Thank Sekhmet LibGen and other distributed networks exist.
@ironcatzion
@ami_angelwings
also, tying the legality of libraries to poverty is a good way for a later court ruling to obliterate that legality. if you say now that lending books is copyright infringement but libraries can do it because of the poor, but copyright law doesn't have a "because you're poor" exception, you're essentially ruling libraries illegal and just delaying the enforcement until someone notices.
@Yuvalne exactly, also why charity isn't a solution to problems nor a replacement for public services, whenever politicians claim that charity will fill in the gap it's a way to assure the public that people will still be taken care of so they don't feel guilty for voting away a service but then either charity doesn't fill that gap or it means that charity can be removed at any time with no oversight, or the charity can just decide they don't want to serve certain kinds of people or don't want to operate in certain areas, etc
@ami_angelwings
charity is essentially privatising public services. which goes about as well as all forms of privatisation.
@ami_angelwings yep! Library staff are trained in safeguarding signposting to support services fire evacuation etc robot can’t do that…..
@ami_angelwings I am very much _pro_ the core mission of the #InternetArchive , which is making public domain works available to the general public.
I just wish they hadn't pulled that "Hey, let's unilaterally loan out an infinite number of copies of books we bought and scanned!" stunt. There was only one way this could possibly have ended.
@juergen_hubert i think we need to remember what things were like at the beginning of the pandemic & lockdown, when people were legitimately worried that society might never go back to "normal" and everybody was "pitching in" to try to help. Even corporations made exceptions for things or temporarily changed policies as part of "we're all in this together" even if it was just PR. There was a big sense we were putting aside "norms" in order to help each other, some countries instituted forms of income supplement, ppl were talking about how things would lead to UBI or other change.
Within this context I don't fault the IA for wanting to also help & thinking it would be ok to temporarily take off the limit. There was a lot going on, there was a lot of change & norm breaking to help others.
@juergen_hubert Were they thinking tactically? No. Should they have been thinking tactically? It turns out yes b/c the publishers all were waiting with knives. Should they not have done it in retrospect, obviously yes. That probably only would have delayed but not prevented the publishers from acting at some point anyway, but yes it was a mistake. In retrospect, I also obviously wish they hadn't done it given what's happened, but I can't fault them for making that mistake within the context of a global pandemic when so many norms were being shifted or suspended temporarily.
@ami_angelwings Physical libraries are hurt by restrictions on digital content and would have benefited from a court Internet Archive win.