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Ami Angelwings
Public

it's the opposite if anything! how many people got into reading and writing BECAUSE of libraries? I know I did! I started writing because I was always holed up in the library reading fiction and it inspired me. If libraries didn't exist, I wouldn't have had so much access to books. I didn't have money to buy books, I didn't have bookstores near me. Without libraries, your incentive to write if you ONLY care about paying audiences and profit, would also only be narrowly targeted at people who bought books, and not the general audiences available to you through libraries.

Ami Angelwings
Public

also libraries allow you to try out tons of books, i can't imagine without libraries how people would even decide what to purchase, simply going in blind based on reviews like movies except way more expensive and with a much larger time commitment which means people would be even more selective

but then publishers don't actually care about that, they want to turn digital books into a streaming model, where all works are just "content", a featureless sludge to be pumped into the machine to drive subscriptions :\

also, libraries aren't a charity, they're a public service

the anti-IA people say the IA allows anybody to borrow while "real" libraries exist for the poor but that's not the purpose of a library & RL libraries don't just exist as charity for the poor

we as a society have lost the concept of what a public service is, we only see things in terms of profit and charity

public libraries exist b/c our societies decided that access to culture, to information, to knowledge, and to a public space that preserves those things is a public good, it's something everybody should have

public libraries are not and should not be a charity that we only minimally fund b/c some people are too poor to partake in capitalism and therefore need a little handout so they can get smarter to partake in capitalism

Ami Angelwings
Public

i don't think people realize just how important libraries of all sorts are to "book culture", i think they're so normalized in our lives we just take it for granted that some kids grow up with a love of reading and become readers and book lovers and writers... if libraries die off or are killed off enough that they're a shell of themselves, the book industry is not gonna be swimming in cash like they think, in a generation or two, they'll find that the culture of book reading will have massively died, people will still read but they won't have this "love of books", they'll be like "I can get free fic on AO3, why do i care to buy an expensive book from an author i don't know?"

P J Evans
Public

@ami_angelwings
Archives are for preservation.
Libraries are for lending.

Kévin ⏚
Quiet public

@PJ_Evans @ami_angelwings and what about libraries that hold archives of city newspapers that offer other archives to the public as a part of their lending service?

SouprMatt
Quiet public

@kc @PJ_Evans @ami_angelwings What about the term “lending library?” Such a term would be redundant if PJ was correct. And I hope PJ doesn’t think he can go to the Library of Congress and borrow whatever he sees.

Jordan “Yordan” Wight
Public

@PJ_Evans This really isn’t the gotcha moment you think it is.

P J Evans
Public

@yordansic@mastodon.online
You're the one who thinks that.

Scott Francis
Public

@ami_angelwings way way way too many people seem to be unable to view anything except through the lens of turning a profit, whether it's a library or the postal service or a community swimming pool.

Capitalism as a concept has really eroded public goods as a concept.

Scott Francis
Public

@ami_angelwings this was really well said, btw. bookmarked for later.

cicadagen
Quiet public

@darkuncle @ami_angelwings True, in general it seems any public service is devalued in capitalist society... Like people aren't even proud of those services.

Scott Francis
Quiet public

@cicadagen @ami_angelwings or that people are embarrassed to use something they didn't "earn”

(I have thoughts on this related to the scam that is "unlimited PTO”)

genstar.service
Quiet public

@darkuncle @ami_angelwings either monetary profit or public image profit which is what a lot of charities seem to be set up for.

Mark Whybird
Public

@darkuncle @ami_angelwings Fully agree. A question for those who don’t like non-profit things: roughly how much profit do they think the military makes?

msftcangoblowme
Public

@whybird @darkuncle @ami_angelwings

How much does the military make? Lets leave that question to General Smedley D. Butler

heritage-history.com/site/hcla

Mark Whybird
Public

@msftcangoblowme @darkuncle @ami_angelwings Oh, yes *war* is very, very often for profit, but in business terms, the military themselves are a *cost center*.

Mark Whybird
Public

@msftcangoblowme @darkuncle @ami_angelwings I’m just replying to a thread about libraries…

rednikki
Public

@ami_angelwings Authors get a cut from books taken out from libraries (because ebooks are only good for a certain number of checkouts and then the library has to renew). Authors do not get a cut from IA. Ebook piracy is hurting book sales and even leading to book cancellations. (Google “Raven Cycle ebook piracy” for more info.)

Mathaetaes
Public

@rednikki @ami_angelwings they said that about music sales, too. Remember when Napster was going to destroy the entire music industry? Then Apple came along and solved the problems Napster was solving (outrageous CD prices, buying a CD with 2 or 3 good songs and 10 garbage tracks, not being able to preview before you buy) and suddenly digital releases are the next big thing. Then streaming was going to kill music…

Every entrenched business puts out propaganda about technology killing the industry any time anything threatens their ability to effortlessly make money. Don’t believe it.

Seth
Public

@mathaetaes @rednikki @ami_angelwings The CD thing, for example, is simply not accurate. If I sell 10 CDs I make $100 (ignoring for a moment it costs money to make CDs). But if I get streamed 10,000 times I make exactly $0. For someone who has millions of streams, yes, you can make some money, but even then your actual income comes from touring (and maybe some from merch).

Even if you’re a relatively well known author you still might need to have a day job. There’s only a few Scalzis out there, but there’s thousands of Dan Morens who could really use the sales you’re saying don’t mean anything.

rednikki
Public

@selgart @mathaetaes @ami_angelwings Thank you. That is exactly it.

rednikki
Public

@mathaetaes @ami_angelwings Dude, I’m friends with musicians. Their livelihoods are in fact being stolen by streaming. My friend got a million streams of his music and made $10. He’s now a social media manager.

Kirtai
Public

@ami_angelwings
Ugh, I was just talking yesterday with a friend about public services and that they're their own thing separate from charities. So annoying.

Brandon
Public

@ami_angelwings I like that you bring up public services. I think that it calls back to the ultimately moral underpinnings of American copyright law (with Thomas Jefferson of all people lmao), and how it ought to be strongly tempered because of the importance of the individual’s access to ideas.

:blobcataww:
Quiet public

@ami_angelwings I'm pretty surprised that the publishing industry hasn't turned on public libraries earlier, tbh. Agree with everything you said, and libraries are amazing for homeless crowd to have a safe place, even though it's not quite meeting all their needs. I love libraries and public services, and always get weirded out with "public transport isn't turning profit this year" like why should it

F4GRX Sébastien
Quiet public

@ami_angelwings can you plase not call the Internet Archive "IA", for reasons? Thank you.

Filene
Quiet public

@ami_angelwings thank you!! I'm learning in the last year that I really was deluded into thinking charities and non-profits were two of few options, public services is lighting up in my mind more now!

I'm so sad it had to be off the backs of such an anti-democratic decision, though... 🥺

Jens Finkhäuser
Quiet public

@ami_angelwings Libraries are literally (pun intended) preserving our culture.

It should precisely be conservative people that want this to continue, given that conservation/preservation is the shared goal.

If they don't, they're not conservative, but something else. Regressive, perhaps, or control seeking. And liars, obviously.

Ian
Public

@ami_angelwings I’ve never heard an author disparage a library. They are usually a library’s fiercest champions.

~
Public

@ami_angelwings it's often overlooked how *stingy* some rich people are, and how *petty* too. If libraries were only for poor people significant amounts of rich people would consider *books* to be only for poor people, and refuse to spend money on them. This would be a vast cultural sickness that we're only narrowly avoiding these days anyway. Libraries are more necessary than ever.

~
Public

@ami_angelwings when rich people *do* recognize the benefit they get from something (rare, but still often enough) they also tend to fund and champion that thing themselves, way beyond the monetary value they received.

~
Public

@ami_angelwings means testing directly foments class warfare. Means testing turns things from "this is what we value as a society and want to ensure access to" into "this is what we tax the rich for at no benefit to them". The former is the only socialist ideology that works in the US long term.

The truth is the rich like overpaying for convenience, to the point you can fund that convenience for *everyone* at a price the rich find reasonable, especially if you hype up how generous they are

Ash :neocat_flag_genderfluid:
Public

@ami_angelwings@urusai.social wait,,, are people seriously saying that? wtf

Ami Angelwings
Public

@darkphoenix yeah it was a big talking point from the anti-IA authors when the whole row started in 2020

Ash :neocat_flag_genderfluid:
Public

@ami_angelwings@urusai.social so are they saying people above a certain income should be banned from libraries? Or that there should be some sort of shame in having a library card in that case?

Ami Angelwings
Public

@darkphoenix I don't think they think very much about the logistics at all, I think most of them haven't been to a library since they were a kid and still think of libraries as dark inaccessible places that only nerds and poor students go to, and they think libraries should only exist in poor neighborhoods and schools and shouldn't stock stuff like DVDs, video games, or manga, and some would probably income test libraries if they could

Temple of Dionysus
Public

@ami_angelwings There are modern day libraries, which are places to gain wisdom, that are called an "Athenium" and that literally translates to "Temple of Athena."

MadMatheMatiker
Public

@ami_angelwings I mean libraries have been around at least for 3000 years or so, so if they'd hinder book business, they would've already destroyed the economy by now...

criley :manjaro:
Public

@ami_angelwings Libraries are one of the wonderful institutions that help so much in any town.

Silviavont
Public

@ami_angelwings A great thread on libraries :blobcatflower: which are an undeniable treasure.

Tagaziel
Quiet public

@ami_angelwings
I was kind of shocked to consider that some people think like that, but it explains so much. Ironic that we went from "public libraries are necessary for the emancipation of man" (hyperbolic, but allow me the indulgence) to "whatever we need libraries for" in under 200 years.

Thank Sekhmet LibGen and other distributed networks exist.
@ironcatzion

Talya (she/her) 🏳️‍⚧️✡️
Quiet public

@ami_angelwings
also, tying the legality of libraries to poverty is a good way for a later court ruling to obliterate that legality. if you say now that lending books is copyright infringement but libraries can do it because of the poor, but copyright law doesn't have a "because you're poor" exception, you're essentially ruling libraries illegal and just delaying the enforcement until someone notices.

Ami Angelwings
Quiet public

@Yuvalne exactly, also why charity isn't a solution to problems nor a replacement for public services, whenever politicians claim that charity will fill in the gap it's a way to assure the public that people will still be taken care of so they don't feel guilty for voting away a service but then either charity doesn't fill that gap or it means that charity can be removed at any time with no oversight, or the charity can just decide they don't want to serve certain kinds of people or don't want to operate in certain areas, etc

Talya (she/her) 🏳️‍⚧️✡️
Quiet public

@ami_angelwings
charity is essentially privatising public services. which goes about as well as all forms of privatisation.

AAA365
Public

@ami_angelwings yep! Library staff are trained in safeguarding signposting to support services fire evacuation etc robot can’t do that…..

Jürgen Hubert
Quiet public

@ami_angelwings I am very much _pro_ the core mission of the #InternetArchive , which is making public domain works available to the general public.

I just wish they hadn't pulled that "Hey, let's unilaterally loan out an infinite number of copies of books we bought and scanned!" stunt. There was only one way this could possibly have ended.

Ami Angelwings
Quiet public

@juergen_hubert Were they thinking tactically? No. Should they have been thinking tactically? It turns out yes b/c the publishers all were waiting with knives. Should they not have done it in retrospect, obviously yes. That probably only would have delayed but not prevented the publishers from acting at some point anyway, but yes it was a mistake. In retrospect, I also obviously wish they hadn't done it given what's happened, but I can't fault them for making that mistake within the context of a global pandemic when so many norms were being shifted or suspended temporarily.

April The Pink ⋆☾╶⃝⃤☽⋆
Public
@ami_angelwings in the first half i thought u were talking about programming and FOSS
Aknorals⚑Ⓐ 🏴
Public

@ami_angelwings Physical libraries are hurt by restrictions on digital content and would have benefited from a court Internet Archive win.